I enjoyed your street demonstration, and the discussions, but I don't see how having your spokesman dress up in a Santa Claus suit and passing out candy canes is changing the "face of atheism" in the KC Metro area. Many of the believers I talked to thought you were simply ridiculing them by that stunt.
I responded with this:
What event do you think KCAC or any group promoting secular values could have done that would not have been insulting or perceived of as ridiculing to IHOP?
KCAC is committed to activism. Sometimes that includes standing up and against organizations like IHOP and saying "We not only disagree with your values, but find them abhorrent!" This is less for the benefit of the members of IHOP, btw, and more for those individuals who already agree w/ secular values like the separation of church and state, but who don't have the benefit of huge organizations like IHOP to be publicly vocal about and supportive of those values.
If IHOP didn't like us standing out side their convention, promoting secular values in a fun, light-hearted manner, good. That means we were doing it right. IHOP can dislike us all they want. What they can't do is tell us we're wrong. We are supporting the constitution of this country. They are not.
In short, if the Santa suit is what IHOP took the most exception to, they weren't paying attention.
Tom's reply:
Well, you could have just had signs and passed out literatiure and had respectul discussions. In some degree, the discussions were good, as I mentiioned, but the message you were sending with the spokesmen standing up in his Santa Claus suit passing out his candy canes and speaking in arrogant condescending tones was one of ridicule.
By the way, although I am a Christian I am not a member of IHOP. But if they weren't paying attention, it was because of the guy they saw standing up above the rest.
I do get the message the local atheist are sending out...that Christians are abhorrent, and that they are delusional and psychotic and worse as has been posted by leaders of the local atheist groups on local religious blogs agains and again. But when you talk about the Consitution, you need to remember that just as it says that Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of religion, it ALSO says that no law shall be passed prohibiting the free exercise thereof. When some local atheist leaders tell Christians, publicly, that they need to shut up and crawl under a rock and keep their beliefs to themselves, they are trashing the very Constitution they claim to respect.
So, so far, I see no "new face of atheism" being promoted here. If you think treating people this way is the way to win, have at it. Perhaps you should visit the local Meetup group Provocateurs and Peacemakers, which has leadership with a different perspective.
That said, in reference to your intial reply to me, you need to distinguish between "Promoting secualar" values and "Atheism", Secular and Atheistics are not the same thing. What you are promoting is Atheism, yes, but not simply "Secular Values".
Me:
“[Y]ou could have just had signs and passed out literature and had respectful discussions” – We did that, minus the literature. You think the absence of KCAC literature and the presence of Santa hats and a Santa suit is the difference between a respectful demonstration and ridicule? How is wearing a Santa suit ridiculing Christians, btw? I’m not really clear on this. We wore Santa hats b/c it was Christmas time and it created a theme. Santa is a secular Christmas figure and we were out promoting the separation of church and state, a secular value. . . How is that ridiculing Christians? Wearing a Jesus outfit would have been ridiculing Christians.
“[T]he message you were sending with the spokesmen standing up in his Santa Claus suit passing out his candy canes and speaking in arrogant condescending tones was one of ridicule.” – First of all, David is not our “spokesmen.” Just fyi. He is our Activism Director and he is certainly one of the most educated and talented people I have ever heard speak on religion and science, but he is not KCAC’s spokesperson. Also, that is how David talks. Lol! Seriously. And, he was probably being sweet. He’s much meaner to his friends. ;)
“I do get the message the local atheist are sending out...that Christians are abhorrent, and that they are delusional and psychotic and worse as has been posted by leaders of the local atheist groups on local religious blogs again and again.” – Do you get the message of local atheists? That’s interesting. B/c if you read my post above, it says very clearly, “We not only disagree with your values, but find them abhorrent!” I find certain Christian *values* abhorrent. Values like creating a Christian theocracy in the United States.
IHOP’s website states: “IHOP–KC is an evangelical missions organization that is committed to praying for the release of the fullness of God’s power and purpose, as we actively win the lost, heal the sick, feed the poor, make disciples, and impact every sphere of society—family, education, government, economy, arts, media, religion, etc.” (http://www.ihop.org/about/)
Yeah, I disagree with that! A lot! I do not want IHOP to “impact every sphere of society,” including the United States “government.” I’d like IHOP to keep out of the government, thankyouverymuch.
Furthermore, Pastor Lou Engle, a senior leader at IHOP-KC stated: "I believe we're headed to an Elijah/Jezebel showdown on the Earth, not just in America but all over the globe, and the main warriors will be the prophets of Baal versus the prophets of God, and there will be no middle ground."
I find that downright terrifying and a little mentally unstable. However, I do not make that judgment of all Christians. I have met many Christians and am friends with many Christians who do not share the desire for the United States to be a theocracy, who do support the separation of church and state and who do not believe there is “no middle ground” between “the prophets of Baal” and “the prophets of God.”
“But when you talk about the Constitution, you need to remember that just as it says that Congress shall make no law respecting the Establishment of religion, it ALSO says that no law shall be passed prohibiting the free exercise thereof. When some local atheist leaders tell Christians, publicly, that they need to shut up and crawl under a rock and keep their beliefs to themselves, they are trashing the very Constitution they claim to respect.” – You, Sir, are gravely misrepresenting KCAC’s message and intent with our demonstration and I really do not appreciate it. Absolutely *no* director or member of KCAC *ever* told anyone to “shut up and crawl under a rock.”
Free EXERCISE of religion does not mean passing laws which prohibit other people’s rights based on *your* beliefs. Such as, promoting a Constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman, for the expressed purpose of restricting gay marriage b/c you believe being gay is a sin. Restricting stem cell research b/c you believe life starts at conception. Lobbying against the HPV vaccine b/c you believe it will encourage promiscuity. Lobbying for equal classroom time for intelligent design and evolution b/c you believe God created the universe. These are a few examples of Christian political initiatives I oppose, based on values I find abhorrent.
I find it shameful anyone would actively stand in the way of someone else’s happiness b/c they think being gay offends *their* God. I find it detestable that someone would restrict potentially lifesaving research b/c a poem in their sacred book tells them life begins in the mommy’s tummy. I find it shocking someone would opposed a vaccine that helps prevent cancer b/c they value sexual purity over their children’s LIVES! I find it straight up insolent that someone would attempt to push their religion’s creation myth into the public school’s science classroom b/c they don’t want their children to learn about evolution.
THAT is what KCAC was standing for that night and what I will always stand for. I’m not telling anyone to “shut up.” They can practice their religion and express their beliefs all they want. I AM asking them to keep their religion to themselves, in-so- much-as not legislating their morality on the entire country.
“So, so far, I see no ‘new face of atheism’” - I don’t know where you got the idea anyone was trying to put a “new face on atheism.” KCAC does wish to “put a face” on atheism. We do that by being out atheists. It’s really that simple. People have a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be an atheist. We want to show people what atheists look like, what we believe, etc.
“Perhaps you should visit the local Meetup group Provocateurs and Peacemakers, which has leadership with a different perspective.” – I know Fred, the organizer of this group. He is a great guy and I consider him a friend. I’m glad there is a group like his in Kansas City. He’s does good work. KCAC is not that group. We do not seek to be that group.
“[Y]ou need to distinguish between ‘Promoting secular’ values and ‘Atheism’” – I feel like I have already addressed this point, but I will elaborate. I feel like atheist, naturally, promote secular values. But we are not the only people who do. There are a lot of religious, agnostic, and spiritual people who support things like funding stem cell research, good science education, sex education, reliable access to contraception, the separation of church and state, etc. That is what I mean by secular values. Values that anyone can have regardless of their religious affiliation.
Tom:
I am not a member of IHOP, but to the extent that you refer to "Christians" in the generality that is no different from any prejudiced person refering, for example, to Catholics, Jews, Blacks, or immigrants in the generality.
And are you seriously aware that there are not leaders of local atheist groups that have publicly called for Christians to SHUT UP and Crawl Under a Rock? Tell me you don't know what I am talking about. Go ahead, and I will direct you to public blogs where they have said that and worse.
And David, if that was the guy in the Santa Claus suit, did have one choice line. When a bystander was asking him to provide some proof for the claims he was making about quantum theory and the Big Bang, he dismissively said to them..."If you seriously want answers to that then you maybe you should not be asking a guy standing here in a Santa Claus suit."
By the way, my answer to that last statement of his was, "Exactly, buddy." LOL!
I have not replied back to Tom and I'm not sure I will. I mostly only replied to his first message not to let such public accusations go unanswered. But, he clearly isn't interested in having any kind of meaningful conversation about this.
I'm not even sure what his point is about me generalizing Christians. Is he saying I'm prejudice against Christians? I'm pretty sure I gave specific examples of Christian values and political initiatives I take issue with. I'm pretty sure I said there were Christians who do support the separation of church and state. So. . . idk. I don't get it.
He seems really mad at some other leader of some other group. One of the Kansas City Freethought meetup organizers must have got into it with him or something. I have no idea what he is talking about. But, I can't speak for other leaders of other groups. I can only speak for KCAC. And we were not out there telling Christians to "shut up and crawl under a rock."
David spoke for himself, when he replied to Tom's latest post w/ this:
So....most of this is tl;dr for me, but I'll give a quick run down without having read any of it:
I personally hate being handed a pamphlet while walking around. It's like somebody saying "here, throw this away for me." It's always an advertisement for some bar or band or some garbage I don't care about. I avoid being handed pamphlets as much as possible.
But free candy? Free candy is awesome! And free candy from a guy dressed as Santa? Double awesome. I had quite a few people take pictures with me. So basically, if I want to gather a crowd to talk about atheism, it makes total sense to go with candy & Santa suit. If I was just some guy handing out pamphlets, people would have walked right by me and did wanted nothing to do with me.
I also do enjoy very much the very first thing average theists ask me is complicated questions on particle physics and genetic biology. I mean...seriously? It lets me know that they have already decided that "god did it!" and have no actual interest in pursuing where evidence leads.
When I have questions about large hadron colliders & anti-matter, I don't ask random people on the street. I read a book by a physicist. Because I actually want to know the answer and improve my understanding of the world.
TL;DR: people will approach a guy passing out candy dressed as Santa and complex questions about hard sciences should be addressed to experts in that field.
Ooh, David. You get it right so much of the time w/ so little effort.
